VLC and Snow Leopard

[recall59]

With the release of Snow Leopard in September, will the VLC team be using the next-generation technologies "Grand Central Dispatch" and the power of GPUs with "OpenCL" to create a more fluid processing of HD video?
The only problem I am experiencing at the moment playing HD video H.264 and VC-1 with AC3 and DTS to an optical output is the skipping and dropping of frames.
Do you think that this problem will be overcome when the new features of Snow Leopard are used?
If so what is the time frame for this development?

[VLC_help]

OpenCL will be supported once FFMPEG devs adapt it.

[nikola23]

OpenCL is one of the first things in a long time that Apple has been a part of that hasn't annoyed the crap out of me.

[skate71290]

omg this is sooo annoying i can't watch an MKV file (1.17 GB over 45 minutes) without it seriously lagging and not running properly... its weird though cos sounds runs perfectly... making it all more annoying when they loose sync

[fkuehne]

VLC will be provided as a 64bit build for Snow Leopard, which will turn it faster and snappier all over the place. VLC will not make use of the mentioned core technologies though, except for a possibly updated QTKit-based Capture input.
GCD makes little sense with VLC itself, same for OpenCL. It needs to be adapted by the 3rd party libraries included, such as ffmpeg, x264, etc. While we closely work with these projects, it depends on them to add support.

[blahsuit]

How is this coming along? is the 64-bit version testable on Snow Leopard?

[fkuehne]

Due to runtime compatibility issues we won't provide 64bit builds of the actual VLC.app anytime soon. "It will be ready when it's ready". Well, stupid sentence. Anyway, I just can't tell. We got it working on Leopard right now, but I don't know how long the fixes for Snow Leopard will take.
For the meantime, you can use the 32bit build, which will perform as expected.

[jann]

Due to runtime compatibility issues we won't provide 64bit builds of the actual VLC.app anytime soon. "It will be ready when it's ready". Well, stupid sentence. Anyway, I just can't tell. We got it working on Leopard right now, but I don't know how long the fixes for Snow Leopard will take.
For the meantime, you can use the 32bit build, which will perform as expected.

I am just wondering .. without trying to offend anyone: We knew this [Snow Leopard] was coming for over a year. Snow Leopard has changes that simply require a recompile to 64-bit just like the linux builds do. Over a year ago we were told that all VLC needed was a 64-bit cross compiler. Mingw-64 builds have been available for quite a while.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11470#p35172

The prior article was posted over a year ago and was the sole reason VLC cannot be built 64-bit. Now, we still do not have one even though we can build most codecs, etc, that VLC uses as 64-bit.

Just wondering.

[Jean-Baptiste Kempf]

Well, simple:
- Win64 builds are under construction, but it is long and so far, it crashes a lot.
- Mac64 builds are working on Leopard, without issue. But Apple changed the APIs for SL, so it doesn't work on SL...
- Linux and BSD 64 builds work, since a long time

[fkuehne]

Additionally, VLC was running in 64bit mode on Snow Leopard until 3 weeks ago for almost one year without any issue. The failure is triggered by a last minute change. Furthermore, the Mac port required more work than the existing Linux ports, as quite a bunch of Carbon had to removed or replaced with CoreFoundation functionality.

Instead of whining, constructive contributions are much more valuable to an open-source project entirely made up of volunteers.

[jann]

I do understand the need to use CoreFoundation since there are no 64-bit Carbon APIs and that re-writing Carbon into 64-bit Cocoa (OR 64-bit Carbon if there was such a bird) would've been a huge undertaking anyway. I understand the idea that if you are gonna rewrite, rewrite it using CoreFoundation. However, wasn't this known early on with Show Leopard releases? Apple did not just kill the 64-bit Carbon APIs 3 weeks ago. I am a developer and none of what I am about to say is covered under the NDA I signed with Apple: 64-bit Carbon has been axed since Leopard. Didn't we know it was coming? My point is not "Bad Developers!" ... It is more trying to understand why if it worked 3 weeks ago, does it not work now. I am assuming that

The failure is triggered by a last minute change

means a last minute change in VLC -- and not in the betas.

Instead of whining, constructive contributions are much more valuable to an open-source project entirely made up of volunteers.

Ya know, I really have a problem with that comment. I was in no way, shape or form whining and my comment at the start of my post stated that! I was wondering.

I am just wondering .. without trying to offend anyone: We knew this [Snow Leopard] was coming for over a year.

So, again, what part of that did you think was whiny? The poster could've said something like "We put Snow Leopard on hold cos of..." or "Snow Leopard's 64-bit functionality is delayed to to changing from Carbon to CoreFoundation". I would've understood and left it lie. But this was not done. Maybe if that was said, then some CoreFoundation Guru could've known you were having issue and volunteered his/her time. Maybe the

open-source project entirely made up of volunteers

could've had help when they needed it. It is not like Mac Developers have nothing better to do right now. With the release of Snow Leopard, indeed, Mac Developers are in high demand for open-source projects. Instead due to the "clipped" response we were given, we just were left wondering.

[Jean-Baptiste Kempf]

For some reason, I have still many programs that are running on Win7 64bits and that were created for Win98...

Maybe, you should ask yourself why does Apple breaks everything at every release of the OS, or even at every release of Xcode...

Oh, and why needs of such NDAs for public APIs? Win7 APIs have been known for more than 8months... To the public...

[Jean-Baptiste Kempf]

I do understand the need to use CoreFoundation since there are no 64-bit Carbon APIs and that re-writing Carbon into 64-bit Cocoa (OR 64-bit Carbon if there was such a bird) would've been a huge undertaking anyway. I understand the idea that if you are gonna rewrite, rewrite it using CoreFoundation. However, wasn't this known early on with Show Leopard releases? Apple did not just kill the 64-bit Carbon APIs 3 weeks ago. I am a developer and none of what I am about to say is covered under the NDA I signed with Apple: 64-bit Carbon has been axed since Leopard. Didn't we know it was coming? My point is not "Bad Developers!" ... It is more trying to understand why if it worked 3 weeks ago, does it not work now. I am assuming that

The failure is triggered by a last minute change

means a last minute change in VLC -- and not in the betas.

Too bad for you, the change happened in Snow Leopard, 3 weeks ago, not in VLC... In the CoreFoundation API in 64bits, for security reasons...

Instead of being aggressive and pretend you know better than the developers, you should ask nicely...

[fkuehne]

Okay, sorry about the harsh response. Still, I have to underline that the blocker is not due to a change in VLC but in Snow Leopard. I've you had asked me a month ago, I had said that everything is cool and VLC64 will be released the same day as Snow Leopard.

Just a quick note on CoreFoundation and the 32bit-only character of Carbon: of course as I knew that, as I attended the WWDC in 2008. Switching the APIs wasn't done in a day, but it was relatively easy, especially since we kept compatibility with Leopard. There was no significant problem here.

The issue we are facing right now is not due to a change in VLC, but in the Cocoa runtime. VLC stopped working in the last two seeds (the GM and the one prior to it). I'm giving some details here now, as Snow Leopard is publicly available now and this part is no longer under NDA.
Launching VLC results in crashes in a low level function called _NSBundleCreate, which is triggered by a whole bunch of Cocoa and IOKit methods. Basically every method of these frameworks results in a crash on Snow Leopard. This is strange, as exactly the same code runs nicely in 64bit on Leopard and prior seeds of Snow Leopard.
To make this issue a bit more understandable, I'd have to outline VLC's internal structure a bit. Basically, it's important that VLC is no ordinary NSApplication, but a plain C app, which loads a Cocoa plugin, which instantiates NSApp itself. Therefore, you cannot reproduce the crashes in normal Cocoa apps.
In case you're interested, I've got a (VLC-based, but vastly simplified) sample project around, which demonstrates the issue.

[jann]

Instead of being aggressive and pretend you know better than the developers, you should ask nicely...

I seriously did not realize I was being aggressive. I just stated the facts as I drew them from the posts. I was honestly not aware of the breakage of certain CoreFoundation APIs. When I stated that "Apple did not just kill the 64-bit Carbon APIs 3 weeks ago." I was under the impression that the change to using CoreFoundation (vs 32-bit Carbon) was the issue -- and was wondering why the port had not started earlier (if it was the issue). I was under this impression because of the following comment:

Furthermore, the Mac port required more work than the existing Linux ports, as quite a bunch of Carbon had to removed or replaced with CoreFoundation functionality.

I think that the way the above was stated was what caused this impression.

Listen: I am not out here to argue. I seriously want to make VLC a better product. I am just seeing a lot of short -- actually irritated-style answers to the 64-bit question (on several platforms). Maybe a sticky of the reasons VLC is not yet available in 64-bit would help (and, if known, a timeline that is updated). Why? How many VLC for OS X downloads are there? Now, considering VLC users are at the early-adopter end of the spectrum (I don't think anyone can argue with that) then just estimate about 25% of those people now getting Snow Leopard at this great $29.00 price -- not to mention with each new Mac. That is how many times (roughly) you are gonna have this question asked in the future -- or at least that is how many 10.6 Snow Leopard users you will have in the future.

I am going to stop posting about this because it seems as if every explanation-type post I do on this subject is treated as if it were a personal attack against the developers. This could not be farther from the truth. I respect you all and am constantly awed by the fantastic ability of VLC to play almost anything I can throw at it.

I think you all do great work. I was just confused about the reasoning...not mad at the developers.

I am sorry for anything I said that caused offense.

Jann

[jann]

I'm giving some details here now, as Snow Leopard is publicly available now and this part is no longer under NDA.

Umm.. I guess I missed something again. From what I understand, Snow Leopard's NDA is removed only when the product ships (admittedly Tomorrow). Did I miss something? I did not get an email saying I could talk about crashes or bugs, etc.

Did you?

[Jean-Baptiste Kempf]

Mac OS X users can use VLC 32 bits on Snow Leopard and it will just run fine.

The issue we are facing right now is not due to a change in VLC, but in the Cocoa runtime.

[Jean-Baptiste Kempf]

I'm giving some details here now, as Snow Leopard is publicly available now and this part is no longer under NDA.

Umm.. I guess I missed something again. From what I understand, Snow Leopard's NDA is removed only when the product ships (admittedly Tomorrow). Did I miss something? I did not get an email saying I could talk about crashes or bugs, etc.

Did you?

It is out today.

[jann]

I'm giving some details here now, as Snow Leopard is publicly available now and this part is no longer under NDA.

Umm.. I guess I missed something again. From what I understand, Snow Leopard's NDA is removed only when the product ships (admittedly Tomorrow). Did I miss something? I did not get an email saying I could talk about crashes or bugs, etc.

Did you?

It is out today.

Yup, (grin) and today is friday. heh!