export .flv to .mp3 directly

traut · Postby **traut** » 20 Feb 2013 08:41

Why is there no option to export a video.flv to an audio.mp3 directly?

Whenever I try the Streaming/Eporting Wizard via Transcode/Save to File I may select from the playlist and check Transcode Audio with Codec MP3.

Next I do optain a confusing list of Encapsulation formats with

o MPEG PS
o MPEG TS
o MPEG 1
o OGG
o RAW
o ASF

and some more inactive items.

The only working solution then is to save as .mpg, e.g. in format RAW - and then take the .mpg and export this, finally, to an mp3.

What I really look for is the option to save as .mp3 directly - and I wonder why this is not available. Is there any special reason?

I do use VLC 2.0.5 64bits for Mac - and I wonder: is there any predefined Service, any AppleScript, anything else for a single step processing, as long as VLC does not support the direct conversion?

Postby **Arite** » 20 Feb 2013 16:56

Have you tried just saving it as .mp3 with RAW encapsulation? Should just work.

AFAIK specifying a specific encapsulation format isn't required as it's only a single stream MP3 so all of the relevant MP3 header data is written anyway (no need for multiple streams/chapters etc.).

FYI you can do this by, in VLC, going to:
Media >> Convert / Save...

Selecting you input, clicking "Convert / Save". Then create a new profile with "RAW" for the encapsulation, then in the "Audio codec" tab check "Audio", and select MP3 for the codec. Give the profile a name and save it.

Then click "Convert" and you should get a playable MP3 file (without ID3v1/v2 tags).

Arite.

traut · Postby **traut** » 20 Feb 2013 17:31

No, that returned a bigger MPEG file, but not an mp3, when I do it with the preset options

Example:
x.flv: 15 MB
x.mpg (raw): 18 MB
x.mp3: 4 MB

You mean that I could create a raw mp3 profile of my own? How? I don't have Media, but File, I don't have Convert/Save, but Streaming/Export - is that what you mean or do I look at the wrong place?

Postby **Arite** » 20 Feb 2013 17:54

What version of VLC are you using? Don't remember seeing a File menu since VLC 0.8.6i with the wxWidgets interface.

Using VLC 2.0.5 (latest version), going to "Media >> Convert / Save...":

That should let you select your input file. Clicking "Convert / Save" should bring up this:

Where you can then create a new profile. Select it from the Profile drop down box once created.

Arite.

traut · Postby **traut** » 20 Feb 2013 18:03

As I said in my initial post: VLC 2.0.5 64bits for Mac

Nothin' about convert:

Postby **Arite** » 20 Feb 2013 18:10

Oh OK, fair enough. Missed that you had the Mac version (assumed Windows/Linux).

This commandline should work:

Code: Select all

vlc INPUT :sout=#transcode{vcodec=none,acodec=mp3,ab=128,channels=2,samplerate=44100}:file{dst=out.mp3}

Where INPUT is your input file and out.mp3 is your output. That should encode a 128kbps CBR MP3 file with a sample rate of 44100Hz.

Alternatively use the wizard with RAW encapsulation, no video and MP3 transcoded audio.

Arite.

traut · Postby **traut** » 20 Feb 2013 18:24

Hm, I don't know whether there's a linux version for Mac around. The commandline you name does not work AFAIK with the common Mac version.

As I told you, the wizard with RAW encapsulation does not return what someone might expect.

The standard menu dialog returns something different:

Code: Select all

:sout=#transcode{acodec=mp3,ab=192}:standard{mux=raw,dst=/Users/traut/Downloads/HSM.raw,access=file}

It probably lacks the essential detail vcodec=none

And the resulting .raw is nothing I can use.

Postby **Arite** » 20 Feb 2013 18:46

Hm, I don't know whether there's a linux version for Mac around. The commandline you name does not work AFAIK with the common Mac version.

The default interface for Windows/Linux is the Qt4 one. OS X has it's own native interface.

However you should still be able to use the commanline using the Terminal app like so (may be outdated):
http://wiki.videolan.org/Mac_OS_X#Command_line

It probably lacks the essential detail vcodec=none

And the resulting .raw is nothing I can use.

OK. Does this sout string work:

Code: Select all

:sout=#transcode{vcodec=none,acodec=mp3,ab=128,channels=2,samplerate=44100}:standard{mux=raw,dst=/Users/traut/Downloads/HSM.raw,access=file}

Essentially the same as the generated one but with the sample rate and channels specified, plus vcodec=none like you said.

The commandline for a terminal window (assuming no vlc alias is set):

Code: Select all

/Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/VLC INPUT :sout=#transcode{vcodec=none,acodec=mp3,ab=128,channels=2,samplerate=44100}:standard{mux=raw,dst=/Users/traut/Downloads/HSM.raw,access=file}

Arite.

traut · Postby **traut** » 20 Feb 2013 19:37

I'd wish that this would work without the cli, but via a reasonable GUI.

However, the CLI does not work for INPUT:

Code: Select all

/Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/VLC "/Users/traut/HSM.flv" :sout=#transcode{vcodec=none,acodec=mp3,ab=128,channels=2,samplerate=44100}:standard{mux=raw,dst=/Users/traut/Downloads/HSM.raw,access=file}
VLC media player 2.0.5 Twoflower (revision 2.0.5-0-g1661b7d)
[0x100280e70] main interface error: no suitable interface module
[0x100215570] main libvlc: Running vlc with the default interface. Use 'cvlc' to use vlc without interface.
2013-02-20 19:31:59.628 VLC[21915:903] ERROR: <PXSourceList: 0x102870000>: Attempt to set unknown item as dropItem=<SideBarItem: 0x102871750>.
[flv @ 0x10089b220] max_analyze_duration reached
[flv @ 0x1009d3e20] max_analyze_duration reached
[h264 @ 0x102072420] AVC: nal size 2075
[h264 @ 0x102072420] no frame!
[0x1028c8be0] filesystem access error: cannot open file /Users/traut/:sout=#transcodesamplerate=44100:standardaccess=file (No such file or directory)
[0x1002d1d10] main input error: open of `file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodesamplerate%3D44100%3Astandardaccess%3Dfile' failed

I tried to use INPUT /Users/traut/HSM.flv with and without quotes, but the CLI ignored that and always merged this to /Users/traut/:sout...

My feature request is that the process path that you described would be available within the Mac GUI - and even better to have this path as a predefined profile, which would permit a conversion for the common personal applications, such as flv2mp3 here, without further window dialog steps

traut · Postby **traut** » 20 Feb 2013 19:42

Here's the full log, showing that the input first seems to be ok, but then the CLI becomes broken

Code: Select all

main debug: using interface module "macosx"
main debug: TIMER module_need() : 291.256 ms - Total 291.256 ms / 1 intvls (Avg 291.256 ms)
main debug: looking for services probe module: 5 candidates
main debug: no services probe module matching "any" could be loaded
main debug: TIMER module_need() : 4.471 ms - Total 4.471 ms / 1 intvls (Avg 4.471 ms)
macosx debug: using Snow Leopard AR cookies
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: looking for extension module: 1 candidate
lua debug: Opening Lua Extension module
lua debug: Trying Lua scripts in /Users/traut/Library/Application Support/org.videolan.vlc/lua/extensions
lua debug: Trying Lua scripts in /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/extensions
lua debug: Trying Lua scripts in /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/share/lua/extensions
main debug: using extension module "lua"
main debug: TIMER module_need() : 0.319 ms - Total 0.319 ms / 1 intvls (Avg 0.319 ms)
main debug: adding item `HSM.flv' ( file:///Users/traut/HSM.flv )
main debug: Creating an input for 'HSM.flv'
main debug: rebuilding array of current - root Playlist
main debug: rebuild done - 2 items, index -1
main debug: processing request item: HSM.flv, node: Playlist, skip: 0
main debug: resyncing on HSM.flv
main debug: HSM.flv is at 1
main debug: starting playback of the new playlist item
main debug: resyncing on HSM.flv
main debug: HSM.flv is at 1
main debug: creating new input thread
main debug: Creating an input for 'HSM.flv'
main debug: using timeshift granularity of 50 MiB, in path '/tmp'
main debug: `file:///Users/traut/HSM.flv' gives access `file' demux `' path `/Users/traut/HSM.flv'
main debug: creating demux: access='file' demux='' location='/Users/traut/HSM.flv' file='/Users/traut/HSM.flv'
main debug: looking for access_demux module: 3 candidates
main debug: no access_demux module matching "file" could be loaded
main debug: TIMER module_need() : 0.118 ms - Total 0.118 ms / 1 intvls (Avg 0.118 ms)
main debug: creating access 'file' location='/Users/traut/HSM.flv', path='/Users/traut/HSM.flv'
main debug: looking for access module: 3 candidates
filesystem debug: opening file `/Users/traut/HSM.flv'
main debug: using access module "filesystem"
main debug: TIMER module_need() : 0.123 ms - Total 0.123 ms / 1 intvls (Avg 0.123 ms)
main debug: Using stream method for AStream*
main debug: starting pre-buffering
main debug: received first data after 0 ms
main debug: pre-buffering done 1024 bytes in 0s - 22222 KiB/s
main debug: looking for stream_filter module: 7 candidates
main debug: no stream_filter module matching "any" could be loaded
main debug: TIMER module_need() : 0.082 ms - Total 0.082 ms / 1 intvls (Avg 0.082 ms)
main debug: looking for stream_filter module: 1 candidate
main debug: using stream_filter module "stream_filter_record"
main debug: TIMER module_need() : 0.076 ms - Total 0.076 ms / 1 intvls (Avg 0.076 ms)
main debug: creating demux: access='file' demux='' location='/Users/traut/HSM.flv' file='/Users/traut/HSM.flv'
main debug: looking for demux module: 55 candidates
mod debug: MOD validation failed (ext=flv)
ts debug: TS module discarded (lost sync)
lua debug: Trying Lua scripts in /Users/traut/Library/Application Support/org.videolan.vlc/lua/playlist
lua debug: Trying Lua scripts in /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/anevia_streams.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/anevia_xml.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/appletrailers.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/bbc_co_uk.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/break.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/canalplus.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/cue.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/dailymotion.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/extreme.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/france2.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/googlevideo.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/jamendo.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/joox.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/katsomo.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/koreus.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/lelombrik.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/metacafe.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/metachannels.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/mpora.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/pinkbike.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/pluzz.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/rockbox_fm_presets.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/soundcloud.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/vimeo.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/youtube.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/youtube_homepage.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/playlist/zapiks.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua scripts in /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/share/lua/playlist
avcodec debug: trying url: /Users/traut/HSM.flv
main debug: adding item [color=#FF0000]`:sout=#transcodevcodec=none:standardmux=raw' ( file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodevcodec%3Dnone%3Astandardmux%3Draw )[/color]
main debug: incoming request - stopping current input
main debug: dying input
main debug: adding item `HSM.raw' ( file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodevcodec%3Dnone%3Astandarddst%3D/Users/traut/Downloads/HSM.raw )
main debug: dying input
main debug: adding item `:sout=#transcodevcodec=none:standardaccess=file' ( file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodevcodec%3Dnone%3Astandardaccess%3Dfile )
main debug: dying input
main debug: adding item `:sout=#transcodeacodec=mp3:standardmux=raw' ( file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodeacodec%3Dmp3%3Astandardmux%3Draw )
main debug: dying input
main debug: adding item `HSM.raw' ( file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodeacodec%3Dmp3%3Astandarddst%3D/Users/traut/Downloads/HSM.raw )
main debug: dying input
main debug: adding item `:sout=#transcodeacodec=mp3:standardaccess=file' ( file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodeacodec%3Dmp3%3Astandardaccess%3Dfile )
main debug: dying input
main debug: adding item `:sout=#transcodeab=128:standardmux=raw' ( file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodeab%3D128%3Astandardmux%3Draw )
main debug: dying input
main debug: adding item `HSM.raw' ( file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodeab%3D128%3Astandarddst%3D/Users/traut/Downloads/HSM.raw )
main debug: dying input
main debug: adding item `:sout=#transcodeab=128:standardaccess=file' ( file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodeab%3D128%3Astandardaccess%3Dfile )
main debug: dying input
main debug: adding item `:sout=#transcodechannels=2:standardmux=raw' ( file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodechannels%3D2%3Astandardmux%3Draw )
main debug: dying input
main debug: adding item `HSM.raw' ( file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodechannels%3D2%3Astandarddst%3D/Users/traut/Downloads/HSM.raw )
main debug: dying input
main debug: adding item `:sout=#transcodechannels=2:standardaccess=file' ( file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodechannels%3D2%3Astandardaccess%3Dfile )
main debug: adding item `:sout=#transcodesamplerate=44100:standardmux=raw' ( file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodesamplerate%3D44100%3Astandardmux%3Draw )
main debug: adding item `HSM.raw' ( file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodesamplerate%3D44100%3Astandarddst%3D/Users/traut/Downloads/HSM.raw )
main debug: adding item `:sout=#transcodesamplerate=44100:standardaccess=file' ( file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodesamplerate%3D44100%3Astandardaccess%3Dfile )
main debug: dying input
avcodec debug: detected format: flv
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: Creating an input for ':sout=#transcodevcodec=none:standardmux=raw'
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: Creating an input for 'HSM.raw'
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: Creating an input for ':sout=#transcodevcodec=none:standardaccess=file'
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: Creating an input for ':sout=#transcodeacodec=mp3:standardmux=raw'
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: Creating an input for 'HSM.raw'
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: Creating an input for ':sout=#transcodeacodec=mp3:standardaccess=file'
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: Creating an input for ':sout=#transcodeab=128:standardmux=raw'
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: Creating an input for 'HSM.raw'
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: Creating an input for ':sout=#transcodeab=128:standardaccess=file'
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: Creating an input for ':sout=#transcodechannels=2:standardmux=raw'
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: Creating an input for 'HSM.raw'
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: Creating an input for ':sout=#transcodechannels=2:standardaccess=file'
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: Creating an input for ':sout=#transcodesamplerate=44100:standardmux=raw'
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: Creating an input for 'HSM.raw'
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: Creating an input for ':sout=#transcodesamplerate=44100:standardaccess=file'
main debug: no fetch required for (null) (art currently (null))
main debug: selecting program id=0
avcodec debug: adding es: video codec = h264
avcodec debug: adding es: audio codec = mp4a
avcodec debug: AVFormat supported stream
avcodec debug:     - format = flv (FLV (Flash Video))
avcodec debug:     - start time = 0
avcodec debug:     - duration = 254488000
main debug: using demux module "avcodec"
main debug: TIMER module_need() : 72.543 ms - Total 72.543 ms / 1 intvls (Avg 72.543 ms)
main debug: looking for a subtitle file in /Users/traut/
main debug: looking for decoder module: 32 candidates
avcodec debug: libavcodec initialized (interface 0x361e00)
avcodec debug: trying to use direct rendering
avcodec debug: allowing 3 thread(s) for decoding
avcodec debug: ffmpeg codec (H264 - MPEG-4 AVC (part 10)) started
avcodec debug: using frame thread mode with 3 threads
main debug: using decoder module "avcodec"
main debug: TIMER module_need() : 6.034 ms - Total 6.034 ms / 1 intvls (Avg 6.034 ms)
main debug: looking for decoder module: 32 candidates
main debug: using decoder module "faad"
main debug: TIMER module_need() : 0.340 ms - Total 0.340 ms / 1 intvls (Avg 0.340 ms)
main debug: looking for meta reader module: 2 candidates
lua debug: Trying Lua scripts in /Users/traut/Library/Application Support/org.videolan.vlc/lua/meta/reader
lua debug: Trying Lua scripts in /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/meta/reader
lua debug: Trying Lua playlist script /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/lua/meta/reader/filename.lua
lua debug: Trying Lua scripts in /Applications/VLC.app/Contents/MacOS/share/share/lua/meta/reader
main debug: no meta reader module matching "any" could be loaded
main debug: TIMER module_need() : 0.788 ms - Total 0.788 ms / 1 intvls (Avg 0.788 ms)
main debug: `file:///Users/traut/HSM.flv' successfully opened
main debug: dying input
main debug: removing module "avcodec"
avcodec debug: ffmpeg codec (H264 - MPEG-4 AVC (part 10)) stopped
main debug: killing decoder fourcc `h264', 0 PES in FIFO
main debug: removing module "faad"
main debug: killing decoder fourcc `mp4a', 0 PES in FIFO
main debug: removing module "avcodec"
main debug: removing module "stream_filter_record"
main debug: removing module "filesystem"
main debug: Program doesn't contain anymore ES
main debug: dead input
main debug: TIMER input launching for 'HSM.flv' : 81.869 ms - Total 81.869 ms / 1 intvls (Avg 81.869 ms)
main debug: processing request item: :sout=#transcodesamplerate=44100:standardaccess=file, node: Playlist, skip: 0
main debug: rebuilding array of current - root Playlist
main debug: rebuild done - 17 items, index 16
main debug: starting playback of the new playlist item
main debug: resyncing on :sout=#transcodesamplerate=44100:standardaccess=file
main debug: :sout=#transcodesamplerate=44100:standardaccess=file is at 16
main debug: creating new input thread
main debug: Creating an input for ':sout=#transcodesamplerate=44100:standardaccess=file'
main debug: using timeshift granularity of 50 MiB, in path '/tmp'
main debug: `file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodesamplerate%3D44100%3Astandardaccess%3Dfile' gives access `file' demux `' path `/Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodesamplerate%3D44100%3Astandardaccess%3Dfile'
main debug: creating demux: access='file' demux='' location='/Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodesamplerate%3D44100%3Astandardaccess%3Dfile' file='/Users/traut/:sout=#transcodesamplerate=44100:standardaccess=file'
main debug: looking for access_demux module: 3 candidates
main debug: no access_demux module matching "file" could be loaded
main debug: TIMER module_need() : 0.130 ms - Total 0.130 ms / 1 intvls (Avg 0.130 ms)
main debug: creating access 'file' location='/Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodesamplerate%3D44100%3Astandardaccess%3Dfile', path='/Users/traut/:sout=#transcodesamplerate=44100:standardaccess=file'
main debug: looking for access module: 3 candidates
filesystem debug: opening file `/Users/traut/:sout=#transcodesamplerate=44100:standardaccess=file'
filesystem error: cannot open file /Users/traut/:sout=#transcodesamplerate=44100:standardaccess=file (No such file or directory)
macosx debug: Found 1 capture devices
main debug: no access module matching "file" could be loaded
main debug: TIMER module_need() : 332.993 ms - Total 332.993 ms / 1 intvls (Avg 332.993 ms)
main error: open of `file:///Users/traut/%3Asout%3D%23transcodesamplerate%3D44100%3Astandardaccess%3Dfile' failed
main debug: dead input
main debug: changing item without a request (current 16/17)
main debug: nothing to play
main debug: TIMER input launching for ':sout=#transcodesamplerate=44100:standardaccess=file' : 374.076 ms - Total 374.076 ms / 1 intvls (Avg 374.076 ms)
macosx debug: no optical media found

ParaNoya · Postby **ParaNoya** » 03 Mar 2013 08:38

I have been totally confused too often by the vlc interface for just grabbing the sound

but..I open the flv files with a certain free and excellent open source sound editing program and then export the track as a wav, or mp3 or whatever

I usually open flv files in that program anyway....if I am looking to make a music file from it

The VideoLAN Forums

export .flv to .mp3 directly

export .flv to .mp3 directly

Re: export .flv to .mp3 directly

Re: export .flv to .mp3 directly

Re: export .flv to .mp3 directly

Re: export .flv to .mp3 directly

Re: export .flv to .mp3 directly

Re: export .flv to .mp3 directly

Re: export .flv to .mp3 directly

Re: export .flv to .mp3 directly

Re: export .flv to .mp3 directly

Re: export .flv to .mp3 directly

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